OK, I was trying to not talk about race/discrimination all weekend, but I got a comment
here about profiling that really got to me. I mean,
really. Like, I read it before going to bed at like, 2AM... and here it is, barely after 4 and I still can't stop thinking about it.
Now, before I start, I just want to say that the person who left this comment is a friend. I appreciate what she's got to say, but at the same time, I totally disagree with her. Please, don't go bitching at her because of her opinions. Well, not just her, but anybody. Let's be civil.
Now, this is what she said:
However, I can see why they do profiling. I know that it pisses people off and everything, but when something rings to be true over and over again, and you start to see a pattern, that's the type of people that you look for.
Although I know that there are shitty cops out there, they really are just out there to do their jobs and make people safer. And if someone isn't doing anything wrong, they shouldn't mind perhaps being pulled over every once in a while. It means that the cops are trying to do their job.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. If you belong to a group that's being profiled, then you're a second class citizen. Period. People will look at you differently. You're instant suspects in any crime in your area. You're instant suspects even when there hasn't been a crime committed. And whether you've committed any crimes or not, people will still assume that either you've done something and not yet been caught, or you just haven't started your life of crime yet.
Being put in a group like that? Total loss of dignity.
You know? For the sake of argument, I'll say, OK. I'm with you. Let's profile. We want to feel safe, right? Let's do it.
But. Let's try to be more accurate. Let's examine this...
So. For example... who would be most likely to, say... steal cars? Blacks? Mexicans? I can tell you. Think outside the box... the people most likely to steal cars? High school dropouts. Yes, let's do our profiling by education level. It makes more sense.
Think about it. Who's more likely to deal drugs out on the streetcorner, a dropout or a college grad with his 9 to 5 middle management job? The dropout, of course. Who's more likely to rob a liquor store, someone who graduated high school but didn't go to college, or a college grad working on his doctorate? Yeah, it's the non-college guy. Does that make sense to you? OK, I'm not saying that
all crime is perpetrated by the less educated, but I think it'd be a safe generalization to say that
most is. It makes sense, doesn't it? Education is tied to earning power. The less education, the less earning power. The less earning power, the more likely someone is to commit crimes to get by. This totally makes sense to me. We profile this way, and we'll be able to correctly profile the
uneducated as being a more serious threat for crime than anybody of any particular race.
So, given that, the government should issue badges. Maybe something like the Homeland Security Advisory System, where the threat level is assigned by color. If you graduate from college, you get a green badge. If you complete some college, then you get a yellow badge (yeah, I know I skipped blue, but hey, there's only four levels in this one). If you only graduate from high school, with no college, then you get an orange badge. If you don't finish high school, you get a red badge.
Now, you
have to wear these badges everywhere you go. They have to be plainly visible. Why? So that, when you enter a room,
everybody can instantly assign a threat level to you. How does that sound? Quick, hands on your wallets and purses, here comes an orange! Watch out for that yellow guy over there, too. Man, I don't feel safe unless the whole room is green, yanno?
Serra, I know you're not a college grad. How would you like it if, every time you walked into a room, people assumed you were a criminal? Every time you went to a bar, people would whisper "Look at her. She's an orange. Don't let her sit near us; she'll try to rob us." But you're not a criminal, right? You're a nice girl. You haven't hurt anybody. The fact that you didn't graduate from college has nothing to do with your likelihood of committing a crime, does it? Of course not. Nothing.
Too bad. You're not a college grad, so you're a bigger threat. Period.
I know that it pisses you off and everything, but when something rings to be true over and over again, and you start to see a pattern, that's the type of people that you look for - the uneducated. So, if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't mind perhaps being pulled over every once in a while. It means that the cops are trying to do their job. (do those words sound familiar?)
Damn, doesn't that seem unfair to you? Of course it is. But judging someone just by skin color is just as unfair, wouldn't you agree?
But hey... think about it. We'll still be profiling by color. Not by skin color, but by badge color. Now, how many people who support racial profiling do you think will be supporting
this kind of profiling? I'm thinking, a whole lotta
not many.
Like I always say, it's
so easy to OK discrimination when it's not you who's being discriminated against.
« close it up
Posted by mikey at 03:11 AM.
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The only thing I see wrong with your (fantastic) analogy is that education can be a choice. I got some college and if I really had/want to could go back to finish my degree-thus lowering my threat level. People can't change their race. You will always be API, hispanics will always be hispanic, etc. Profiling is based on outward appearances only. And yes-that is so wrong I can't even see straight! Most white collar crime (embezzelment) is commited by caucasians. So do we start profiling them when they go to work for Fortune 500 companies? A lot of prescription drug abuse is done by nurses. Do we not have nurses anymore? Again-you make me really think about this stuff. Thank you.
and yes, I am *sexy*
Posted by
Manic Witch on 05/14 at 05:18 AM
Extremely well-put. And you know what your hypothetical "idea" reminds me of? The gold stars that were required to be worn by a particular group of people at a particular point in not-so-ancient history.
Chilling.
Posted by
QC on 05/14 at 07:04 AM
Hmmm, profiling by education. I think that the college students and graduates might be the drug buyers from the dropout dealers. At least that is the way it is portrayed on "Intervention". As far as profiling, I have been pulled out of line (white, surgically enhanced, covered with tattooes, blonde-maybe they were looking for sex toys or stripper wear), and so has my husband-he actually had to shave his facial hair-and he is Irish.
Posted by
Mr. Duck on 05/14 at 07:30 AM
Mikey, that was outstanding. It's true that people have a choice about their education (mostly) and that in itself would affect the outcomes, but your point is excellent. I wonder how many people would support profiling then. What about in addition to education level, there was a subcategory for IQ? I don't know the correlations of crime to IQ level but I do know it is something you are more or less born with and can't do too much to change. Would people object to being judged if they had an average or below-average IQ?
This topic is always difficult to address, but I am really impressed with the way you have addressed it. I hope people really do start to think and challenge their own prejudices.
Posted by
Ms.Q on 05/14 at 11:01 AM
mikey, you're making good points. I'm glad you've posted these thoughts.
a thought, though:
I'm quite conscious of "racial issues." My cousins are black, and I had tons of black friends when I was a kid (not sure if black is the right word to use . . . ) I don't have any issues with race in general, altho I do find that I'm more attracted to white or asian guys (side point, really).
anyway, here's my issue with the "race thing." I know that there are problems with race the occur, so I try not to treat people by their skin color. when I'm nice to Asians, as a general rule, none of them second guess why I'm being nice. But it seems that when I'm nice to black people, it takes them forever to warm up to me. This is a total generalization, I know, b/c it's based on the perhaps 5 black people who went to my school, and one was actually warm and friendly from the getgo.
but there were several girls that never warmed up to me at all, despite us being in same situations every once in awhile (ie timers at swim meets). I'd try to be nice and cordial, and I'd get a cold shoulder. Then, one girl, whom I had a class with and also worked on the newspaper with, took the entire year to respond when I'd say "hi" around campus.
I'm thinking, due to small sample size, that this could easily be attributed to personality differences. In fact, I know there are even more white people that give me the cold shoulder. However, it's difficult (unfortunately) to separate actions from race in the mind when my entire sum total of recent interactions with people of a different race had a certain outcome. This completely bums me out, and I wonder if I should be approaching the situation differently.
I've got more thoughts too, but I'll save them for later, since this is such a huge comment. Race is such a hot-button issue, and I wish it weren't, but it's hard to reprogram the visual senses, y'know? And I'm sure it's even harder for people who are not conscious of race or who have been taught to fear other races. Sad life for them, really.
Posted by
Leah on 05/14 at 01:42 PM
Daaaaaamn! I turn my back for just a few days and all hell breaks loose over hea! I had to go back and read all that I missed. Good discussions though.
It is a shame we have all this racism and prejudice even in 2005. Even though little by little it gets a little bit better as time moves on. But sadly it will probably be here till the end of time. It is one of those sad facts like death and taxes.
Posted by
Lori on 05/14 at 08:18 PM
Dear Leah,
There's a good chance that those five black ladies were racists. It happens. It sucks. If you want, I'll be your friend, and you can put another tally on the positive side.
Posted by
Maine on 05/14 at 09:03 PM
You touched on another pet peeve of mine. I actually dropped a class because the majority of the class and the prof didn't see a problem with profiling certain races e-mails due to the "terrorism" threat in this country. Yeah, that's why we have as many suicide bombings as the Middle East, right? Anyway, I hate that if I or my dad or my middle brother get on a plane, we don't get pulled aside since we "pass" and our last name sounds italian even though its arab. But my youngest brother always always gets the 3rd degree just because he is a shade darker than the rest of us and happens to be able to grow facial hair at a much faster rate than my middle brother. Seriously people, when the profiling happens to you or a loved one, is it still fair? Think about it. Or try to visit another country that has accurate information about our fucked up foreign policy unlike the so called media we have here. See how you're treated there.
Posted by on 05/14 at 11:28 PM
You know there's one good way to help solve this problem. Stop classifying people by race.
Seriously, though. The best profiles identify individual physical characteristics, not classifications that group multiple stereotypical characteristics together.
As Jen points out, too many races have too many of the same characteristics to be used effectively in predicting likelihood. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone thought I was of Chinese or Mexican or even African descent. When I had a goatee, some people even thought I was Arab.
But what profiling boils down to, really, is likelihood. There are too many cases where it's pretty much impossible to identify the correct person beyond the shadow of a doubt at first glance. A lot of times first glance is all police and other enforcement officials get to find the right person. So they do their best to calculate the odds.
I do see Serra's point. The majority of cops out there are just trying to do a good job in protecting us with so little information to go on. There are bad apples, but most try their darndest to do the right thing.
Posted by
Chet on 05/15 at 01:02 AM
You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear. (sorry, couldn't help myself)
I know what you mean though. Profiling sucks. But judging people by the way they look or dress or how fat they are is something that will never stop because there are always assholes out there making sure that their children know exactly who to be prejudiced and judgemental against, no matter how many United Colors of Benetton ads we publish so part of me is thinking "what's the effing point." and the other part of me is singing CSNY's "Teach Your Children" whadarayagonna do?
Posted by
Martini Mambo on 05/15 at 03:51 PM
thanks, Maine
yay for friends.
Posted by
Leah on 05/15 at 06:06 PM
I wonder if the folks who can see or agree with Serra's point have ever been discriminated against? Whether for color, religion or sexual preference, being singled out and held back is no picnic and it's not anything I can accept or go along with just because someone's "doing his job".
Posted by
Chari on 05/16 at 05:22 AM
I started a similar discussion on my site a while ago, when Ian Spiers (who looks middle eastern) told his story about being harassed by Homeland Security for photographing a public landmark. (see:
http://69.93.170.43/index.php).
Ian's story enraged me. How could anyone treat another person that way? As much as I hate profiling of any sort, in cases like Ian's, what is the right thing for the police to do? I whole heartedly agree with Ian that what they actually did was not the right thing. Would passing him by have been the right thing for the cops to do? Just the simple act of stopping him and asking him for his ID reeks of profiling. But then what if he had been a terrorist, and no one had questioned him for fear of being accused of profiling?
Like I said, as much as I hate profiling, I have a hard time drawing the line between what actions are needed to keep us safe and which are just discriminatory.
Posted by
geeky on 05/16 at 11:57 AM
Chari - read my comment, three comments above yours.
Posted by
Chet on 05/16 at 12:31 PM
Excellent analogy. Thank you for putting the fine point on it.
Posted by
Broad on 05/16 at 12:40 PM
There's a different point here I want to make: If you are going to profile, profile the folks that do most of the crime: Men! If you look at all the crime statistics, you could make a great case that we should all be afraid--very afraid--of men of all races, ages, sexual orientations, nationalities, and classes.
Now, having hopefully irritated the hell out of anyone who thinks I'm serious, I'll get to the real point: Profiling would work if it actually did what it is supposedly intended to do--identify criminals. The trouble is that instead, it selects people based solely on superficial characteristics. This does nothing to make anyone safer, and has the enormously negative effect of making certain races feel harassed instead of helped by law enforcement.
If racial profiling actually worked, the decrease in crime that we'd see would be enormous. Though perhaps the OP would be enthused about simply stopping every single person of color--just in case?
Posted by
jadedju on 05/16 at 01:03 PM
Though perhaps the OP would be enthused about simply stopping every single person of color--just in case?
What's the OP? Ocean Pacific?
Posted by
Chet on 05/16 at 05:03 PM
OP=Original Poster. In this case referencing the person Mikey quoted above.
Posted by
jadedju on 05/16 at 05:22 PM
Mikey,
I'm glad that you were tasteful about dealing with this, I wouldn't expect anything less of you.
I (can try to) understand where you're coming from. The college thing made some sense, though I think that I side with Manic Witch about the college thing being a choice. It's late, I think that I'm going somewhere with this though.
I hope that my original comment didn't upset you too much, and (of course) you know that I mean no harm by it and that I'm not racist.
I guess that I just think of it from the technical tried and true theory part of it, as I mentioned in the original comment.
Not everyone should be pulled over or stopped just because they are of a certain color. Though if you see someone that obviously looks like a thug (think of what the bloods and crips usually wear) in a gang area that's acting kinda funny- then they probably are up to no good.
Of course, I am from a way different area of the country than you (and probably most of the other people here) are. Not that many black people around here, or mexicans, or anyone else.
One of my best friends is actually black, and I have explained my theories (like this one) to him, and he respects it and can see where I would come up with something like this.
But it's kinda like when you see a young black man on tv (an example I saw) getting tackled by cops after he ran away from them for no reason: The cops asked him why he ran away, and he says it's because he thought they were going to do something to him, or some such BS.
But if he didn't do anything wrong, then why would he run? They can't do anything to you if you didn't do anything. If I got profiled by your college theory, I would accept that. If it was something based on statistics, and it would make the country a little safer, it would be alright with me.
The statistics that I'm using when I talk about profiles, is the statistic (that I was taught in Corrections Officer class) that 60% of people in state prison (at least in Ohio) are black. Not ALL minorities put together, just african americans.
It's not a racist thing, it's a statistical thing, and so is profiling. Though I can see where some would think that it was racist.
In your case though, when you got pulled over, the laws in our state would say that they had no right at all to pull you over. You have to have a damn valid reason to pull someone over here, and their reason for pulling you over was a bunch of shit.
Also, for anyone out there that doesn't know, (at least in my state, and maybe in yours) if a cop asks to search your car, you can say no to them. (Unless they see something obviously illegal, like a joint in your ashtray in plain sight, or the smell of it)
As for JadedJu's comment, I don't think that every person of color should be pulled over. It's really all about how someone is acting, and where they are. It's not all just because they're black or whatever.
Maybe my comment came off wrong at first, though I hope that this explanation made it seem a little more logical. It's kinda like the whole white man in his 30's and 40's as being what most serial killers are. I can accept that, it rings true in most cases. There aren't a lot of black or female serial killers. It's also profiling, but it does help the police narrow down who they're looking for, and it's usually right. Nobody has ever mentioned that in these comments yet, let's not forget that the white folks have a profile against them too.
And I'm sorry that you had to be awake thinking about that, Mikey, I didn't mean to upset you.
Posted by
Serra on 05/16 at 09:29 PM
I disagree with profiling. Being a former educator I had to read about Jane Elliott's "Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes" exercise in the 1960's. It took place in Riceville, Iowa (a few hours from where I live). Ms. Elliott was a fourth grade teacher who taught her class about racism. Since Riceville is 99.9% white, the student's hadn't had any contact with racism. She divided her class into blue-eyed and brown-eyed "races". It was amazing what happened; not only what happened but how quickly it happened. Bright, confident students did worse on their tests and were timid. Average students suddenly had a lot of confidence in their abilities. You can read about it at:
http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp
I believe any kind of profiling based on physical characteristics is bad. I believe that we need to judge people on an individual basis and not get caught up in the groups they may or may not belong to.
I've got one question to those who believe profiling is good: Why didn't we profile and detain the prototype Aryans during WWII?
Posted by
BillH on 05/16 at 09:52 PM
I've went ahead and looked up the statistics at different sites, to give a little bit of facts to stand behind what I've said as well.
Here and
here.
Posted by
Serra on 05/16 at 10:37 PM
"But if he didn't do anything wrong, then why would he run? They can't do anything to you if you didn't do anything. "
This is insane. Absolutely insane. Too many times have I personally seen people who have done nothing get cornered by the police, assaulted or arrested. Not because they were guilty, but because they "fit the profile" and the police were anxious to make an arrest. My brother was once punched by a cop who thought he was guilty because he "looked the part." He was, in fact, with me at the time of the crime, but that didn't stop the police from assaulting him. And, since cops don't typically testify against each other, he had no recourse but to let it go. When I was 16 and living in NY, if I saw a cop coming toward me, I'd have
run like hell. Not because I was guilty, but because I didn't want to be assumed guilty.
Look at Amadou Diallo - shot 40-something times on his front porch while looking for his keys because he looked the part. Look at
Wayne Williams, potentially railroaded because he "fit the profile." That's bullshit - why should I stand still and risk that? Back in the 90's, Guiliani made it unwritten law that the police were allowed to do whatever they had to do to clean up the streets. When a minority gets hurt by it, Guiliani would go on TV and say, "I support my police 100%" So am I supposed to feel safe when I see an NYC cop now? Knowing he can shoot me and get off by saying "I'm sorry?" I'd run like hell.
The truth about profiling is that it makes people who fit that description into criminals. Why are the prisons filled with blacks and hispanics?
Because blacks and hispanics get arrested. You think 30 year old white guys don't buy weed too? You think 22 year old white girls don't shoplift? You think all those minorities are in prison because they're all bad apples? Some are, yes. But some got arrested for things that the 30 year old white guy would never get arrested for. When the 40 year old white guy gets pulled over for speeding, they don't check his glove compartment for marijuana, do they? But when they check the hispanic man's car and they find the marijuana, he gets to go to jail. Thanks to profiling. And don't tell me 30 year old white people don't smoke weed either... some of y'all are holding right now.
So, using statistics that are manufactured by profiling is not a valid argument to support profiling. Do you really think that blacks and hispanics are any worse than white people are? Does it make sense that a justice system that is designed to target minorities would have anything less than a 60% minority jail population?
Using one of Mikey's famous analogies, if overweight people were considered criminals on sight, then Chubbs wouldn't feel safe if he saw a cop either. And you'd better believe that there would be a lot overweight folks in prison. Profiling sucks - 100%.
Posted by
Maine on 05/17 at 05:30 AM
statistics aside, if you support profiling, you're basically saying "Mike, I know you're a nice guy, but too bad. You have to be hassled by the cops. But it's for national security, so 'take one for the team.' Maine, you too. You've done absolutely nothing wrong, but hey, too bad."
And it's not just us. Every black friend you have... every hispanic friend... every asian friend... every friend you have that's not white? You're shitting on them. You're devaluing them as citizens and as people. "Hey, nothing personal, but your people are criminals. I don't care if you're a law abiding citizen - I'm just gonna assume that you're a criminal. Is that alright with you? No? What's the problem? Well too bad."
Now, I wonder how many of you pro-profilers would feel as you do if
you had to take one for the team. Please answer... honestly. Would you volunteer to be harrassed? We're talking anywhere, anytime. Would you volunteer some of your dignity, hell, some of your freedom, just so other people can feel safer? I mean,
if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about, right?
Posted by
mikey on 05/17 at 08:10 AM
Chubbs may not be profiled by the police, but he definetly will be profiled by any medical professional. Including being denied treatment.
He will also be profiled by the airlines. He may very well be denied boardage if he dosen't cough up the money for a second seat.
Sure, he could lose weight, but that may take years. If it is possible at all. Let's just hope he dosen't have an medical emergencys or deaths in the family during that time.
I agree that profiling is wrong, but so is any discrimination. Especailly by the professionsals who are in service industrys. It is sicking to see how many ways that it can be validated in our culture.
Posted by
Gina on 05/18 at 11:16 AM
